You incura 6-year ADSO for completing WOBC and also for completing Initial flight training. I would never have signed a 10 year ADSO for army aviation. Whatever path you end up taking, please consider taking a UPT slot when offered. Expect bonuses to disappear as well. PDF Selection of Army Aviation Officers and Warrant Officers Looks like I'll be doing 10 years insteaddang. You can post now and register later. This is the second part of a series about choosing between military and civilian career options. There are more than enough fully qualified CAREER ENLISTED personnel from the 5 services, waiting in the wings, so to speak, to apply for the WOFT program. The best pilots I have served with were prior NCOs. I'm in better shape today than I was 10 years ago. Before people get started on the, this is the way the Army goes and all that, I know. Our young NCOs want to become warrant officers and get out and fly. Prospective warrant officers can see that the Army is having trouble retaining pilots, and they can also see that increasing the service obligation by four years works against their best interests. The views expressed are those of the authors, and do not reflect the official position of the United States Military Academy, Department of the Army, or Department of Defense. Aviation: dude it's a 10 year ADSO, so I hope you like aviation, cuz you ain't going anywhere else. His deployment vulnerability continues for even a couple of years after his seasoning orders are over. ADSO is completed. Another anecdote, when I was deployed there was a desire to have experienced cockpits on higher risk/higher visibility missions usually two pilots with 1000+ total hours. Ultimately, the Army needs to focus on the retention of quality talent; not on retaining mediocre talent for a longer period of time "because they can mandate longer ADSOs.". So here I am, considering branching aviation when all of a sudden.BAM! No. I spend almost 20 years missing opportunities due to family, deployments, school, and fear to change. No one knows somehow, my S1 doesnt know either. It's a great time to apply to become a pilot, and [Soldiers] can get in with a high school degree. The program offers an incentive to remain on active duty in aviation service for either 3 or 5 years, beginning at ADSO expiry or contract approval date, whichever is later. Did ROTC, then Aviation, allegedly 6 years upon completion of flight training. It doesn't matter that the WOFT contract I signed this week states that it is a 6 year ADSO - the Army can do and change what it wants. . As a result, the US Army Aviation Center of Excellence initiated a survey to better inform future incentive and quality of life programs designed to increase retention.. West Point graduates have a 5 year commissioning ADSO. Glad I retired when I did. Your email address will not be published. If you love the flying youre doing, and you have a squadron of good people, any assignment can be a great experience, no matter how busy you are. Next, hed go to his first assignment. Yes, that is 11 combat stripes. The extended ADSO is intended to increase Army pilots' retention in the future. The policy also applies to Army Reserve and National Guard components, but their obligated service will remain part-time, he said. There are also a lot of great flying opportunities that you can only do on Active Duty. The big gotcha of the Active Duty pilot career path is that on the day you earn your wings, you also get hit with a 10-year Active Duty Service Commitment (ADSC). It does have the potential to get him to the airlines more quickly, and hed do all of his military flying in the Guard or Reserve (with Quality of Life far superior to Active Duty, in most cases). Why would you stay in the Army where you barely get to be a normal human, where you could make twice the pay, work half the amount, and actually get to live a somewhat normal life? The new policy doesnt include Soldiers currently in training, said Chief Warrant Officer 5 William S. Kearns, aviation and officer policy integrator for the Armys G-1 office. More money for tents and rifles, I suppose. Expand The 10 year ADSO will actually prevent all but the youngest street-to-seaters from making the jump, I graduated flight school right after turning 24 and the AF won't take you after 33 without a waiver. There are many complexities in these advanced helicopters, which translates to increased costs in flight hours, maintenance, and training requirements, Kearns said. The Army should be able to meet their quota through CAREER Enlisted personnel ONLY if they must. I would be inclined to say that your contract is still 6 year ADSO. review for a restaurant or somethingonly those who either #LOVEDIT or #hatedit:( ever write reviews, so it's hard to know what the experience is like for the average man. On the reset year, units focused on team building, socializing, individual skills, and professional development. Raising the service commitment ignores the actual root causes. The same goes for great deals like going to Test Pilot School, flying the E-11A BACN, and much more. I will still try to join but maybe that's because I'm retarded, Guess my packet will go back on the share drive. Initial assignments should be in table of organiza-tion and equipment (TOE) rather than table of distribution and allowances (TDA) units. 4 years closer to RTAG if they're hiring. Paste as plain text instead, Not saying I would want the out but, contractually wouldnt there be something to be said for Breach of contract here? army aviation 10 year adso - kestonrocks.com Looks like 11-11.5 year total commitment. I want to do it for as long as I can. You must understand, the Army has an ace in the hole when filling the Warrant Officer aviation pipeline. Active component warrant officer strength, as of October 1, 2018 (Source: Report to Congressional Armed Services Committees on Initiatives for Mitigating Military Pilot Shortfalls), Two main variables affect pilot strength in the military: production and retention. Press J to jump to the feed. I want to do it for as long as I can. While I continue to assert this is far better than becoming an Active Duty pilot through the. One problem with pilots is that we don't age well (I'm not a military aviator, just a private pilot) so there would be an issue of reaching a physical condition expiration date at some point. It further acts as a disincentive to those who would like to do the mission, but are unwilling to sacrifice a decade of their time in the event they don't like the lifestyle. Exit surveys are important, but those only capture the opinion of those whom the Army has already lost. Well also see some advantages of Active Duty and some options for cutting your time there short. junglerekon 2 yr. ago The TIG start isn't official yet. The Army Needs a Better Solution for its Pilot Shortage Although its less common to get more than 6-12 months of your ADSC forgiven under this program, that still gets you off Active Duty sooner than expected. Full disclosure, I was a street to seat Warrant that served for 24 years. The earlier you can Palace Chase, the less difference there is between a regular Active Duty pilot and someone following Stans plan. How is my list for OCS? : r/army - Reddit 10 year ADSO is official 78 212 212 comments Best Add a Comment awestm11 3 yr. ago "Army Aviators don't want to stay in the Army even though we pay them less, deploy them more, and treat them worse than their peers in other branches and civilian careers, so we will just force them to stay in longer. Posted in these groups: Pilot Officers Warrant Officers For example, if there are 100 ROTC Aviation slots, only 20 can . Army directive, AD 2021-31, approved Sept. 10, 2021, and effective Oct. 1, 2021, will reset the time required for aviator warrant officers (military occupational specialty 152 through 155) to. Final thoughts the social aspect of the Army has never been worse. Army Career Satisfaction Program That seems like a lifetime to an 18 year old. How long is Army Warrant Officer School? My talk with Stan covered all of these, so my next question was, How long were you planning on being involved in military aviation then? Regarding the future Army Commissioned Lts in wishing to branch aviation, that will be an issue next year. The US Army recently changed its aviation Active Duty Service Obligation from 8 to 10 years and created an absolute uproar. for a discussion of these options and their advantages.) Pasted as rich text. Army Aviation Leaders should. Our nation needs brave men and women willing to use Air Power to murder our enemies and break their shit. ADSO stands for Active Duty Service Obligation. D. Your email address will not be published. A large number of aviation personnel have a lot of passion and dedication to the mission, but that can only last so long when your life consists ONLY of the mission. The ARMY should allow ATP for all prior service men willing and fit to fly. Army, Coast Guard . It just seems like a bait and switch to have me sign a conditional release and paperwork that says 6 years and then say, oh by the way we meant 10. That means, we need you! Starting in October, all personnel selected to attend the Army's initial entry aviation training will incur an ADSO of ten years upon graduation from flight traininga dramatic increase from the previous six-year commitment. Expect to get yelled at for shit you have no control over. In congressional testimony it was stated that at that time (2019) around 40% of the pilot population was within 3 years of being retirement eligible. It is the cheapest method for increasing retention rates, delivers a long-term investment in human capital, and provides a more predictable model for pilot production requirements. Graduate School Program: Only 20% of the Aviation Branch allocation for ROTC and West Point can receive the Graduate School Option. To create a mission-ready helicopter pilot, the Army invests between six hundred thousand and one million dollars during approximately one year of flight training. WASHINGTON -- Starting in October, commissioned and warrant officers selected for initial entry flight training will be required to serve at least a decade once they become an Army aviator,. What I would like to add is almost the opposite of some of these comments. ROTC Scholars have a 4-year commissioning ADSO. Also get's a TS which is money, but dealing with army IT infrastructure is frustrating. (Well assume a move to the Guard or Reserve after completing your initial 10-year UPT ADSC. Not difficult for the Army in finding 300 additional NCOs for the WOFT program if need be. NO WOFT POSTS. My family got to live in England for three years and it was fantastic! Clear editor. United States, and the U.S. Army Re-serve, unless otherwise stated. For example, its the only service that allows people to go into flight training with only a high school degree. I am planning on staying in anyway but that 10 year also looms big if everything sucks and you hate it. Within the company we tried to level out flight time to give the senior guys some rest, but the battalion/brigade leadership was too risk averse and pushed back. They require more time for people to gain experience. Change flight school where primary flight training is done by civilian contractors via fixed wing. The Department of Defense released a report in July 2019 that laid out the challenges the military faces with pilot retention and included plans of action from each branch. Just so we know I'm not a whiny do nothing: seven deployments, six combat for a total of 70 months and 66 months respectively. This call to action comes amid challenging times, with many civilian airlines running on reduced flight schedules, said Chief Warrant Officer 5 Jon Koziol, the Armys command chief warrant officer to the aviation branch, during a Facebook livestream in June. Its a lot to ask. Must be a volunteer just like airborne. I think it would be a great idea to leverage senior NCOs to enter pilot training with a waiver. The future of Army aviation depends on retaining the pilots in whom it invests so much. The increase in the ADSO will have profound affect on USMA/ROTC cadets. As long as hes getting a lot of flight time, Stan should have enough hours for a Restricted ATP rating and a shot at a regional airline job a couple of years before his Active Duty pilot peers. Across the force, warrant officer recruiters are actively on the lookout to fill their ranks. I believe you must pass SERE and another leadership course before phase 1 flight. PDF Training Officer Active Duty Service Obligations - United States Army This of course will do nothing to fix the problem of toxic leaders, poor assignment choices, or any of the other issues. I at least expected a survey or something from the Aviation branch to ask why I was leaving, but again, nothing. Apache course end? Again, 70 percent of Army pilots are warrant officers, while Air Force pilots are all officers. This is usually a 1-year assignment, though it might be two. These investments set the Army apart from all the branches, he said. Believe it or not, more than a few fellow senior non rated Army officers are jealous when it comes to flight pay. 6 years is a masters degree, 10 years is 2 years longer than a PH. It is for anyone graduating flight school and should be based on your graduation date. What a joke. PDF Aviation Service of Rated Army Officers - United States Army Im scheduled to graduate, 1st or 2nd week of September. NO WOFT POSTS. U.S. ARMY RECRUITING COMMAND > In-Service Opportunities > U.S. Army So why are aviators getting out? Hed still have to go through steps 2-5 from the Active Duty pilot career path above! The Modern War Institute does not screen articles to fit a particular editorial agenda, nor endorse or advocate material that is published. Unfortunately, it probably wont exist long enough for it to achieve the desired effects. June 5, 2020 in General Military Helicopter Discussions. It didn't help that the CSA took advantage of his own program by taking private military flight lessons and was awarded his pilots wings while a 4 star. I wish thiswasa little more clear. The first step the Army must take is to implement exit surveys for pilots to determine why they are leaving. Im would bank on that being the flight school start date officially. Additionally, because of rules that the Federal Aviation Administration has put into place over the last decade that make hiring civilian pilots difficult, many regional airlines have created rotary-wing transition programs that substantially ease the transition for Army helicopter pilots. Having looked at these options, lets go back to our original thought: If you missed your shot at the Ultimate Military Pilot Career Path are you screwed? My ORB says a date 6 years from my AD start date, which Im pretty sure is wrong. Im a senior NCO with two decades of experience and proven loyalty to the nation and her army. You get to the airlines sooner, and you spend more years at a major airline. Because honestly put the lifestyle sucks nowadays. New Army directive will reset aviator warrant officer date of rank Not sure. Air defense branch offering $60,000 bonus for warrant officers, New aviators to incur 10-year service obligation, New Aviators to incur 10-year service obligation. | Army Organic Industrial Base Modernization Implementation Plan, Army Civil Works announces publication of a formal review for Nationwide Permit 12, Army Extends Timeline for Postpartum Soldiers to Meet Body Fat Standards, U.S. Army updates promotion and retention policies in response to COVID-19. It never ends. Over the last few years, Army senior leaders took steps to address the pilot retention challenge. Furthermore, for cadets who may want to pursue a civilian career after a stint in the Army, the opportunity costs are higher the longer they stay. At least in the early 2000s, there was the ARFORGEN cycle. That is completely and totally gone. Once Stan finally gets qualified in his aircraft, hed get seasoning orders with his Guard or Reserve unit. Thereafter, the ADSO incurred pursuant to the Army Branch for ADSO Program will be served concurrently with any other non-statutory ADSOs. Privacy Policy. Guess what? I like the idea of the Ultimate career path because it still allows you to earn a 20-year military retirement.. With this data, the Army can tailor solutions to address the issues that cause pilots to leave. It's almost as though he completely and totally ignored the concept of morale and esprit de corps. 10 Year ADSC - End of the World? | BogiDope Yes, , and its important to get there as quickly as you can because, . Although there's a max of 8 years TIS that can be changed in a New York minute. I retired in 1998. The Armys blind spot with retention data is further highlighted by comments made by Brig. It is extremely frustrating to see some officers and senior NCOS make such short sighted decisions to solve complex issues without finding the cause, and not conducting any type of research. Think about approving some ETPs. Theres no debating that the military has a near monopoly on the most exciting aviation available to humankind. Well look at three cases: Although each of these career paths has potential for almost infinite variation, this diagram represents likely versions of each: Looking at these side by side, its clear why #1 is the Ultimate option. F-22 crew chief: https://www.dvidshub.net/image/4798866/f-22-europe. reenlistment document. Nope. The report focused on the unmet demand for pilots in the commercial aviation sector that has attracted military pilots. After all, it is the warrant officer exodus to the airlines that has driven the Armys pilot retention focus. You'll be a WO for three-ish years. Although 10 years of Active Duty feels like a long time, its not that much longer than the alternatives. Though I agree that there is a retention problem, especially within aviation, I'm not sure the Army is focused on the right issue here. The Graduate School Option (GRADSO) portion of the CSP program continues to be suspended since YG2014 pending officer corps reshaping efforts. (Yes, they say ADSO instead of ADSC because the Army and the Air Force refuse to do anything the same since they divorced back in 47.) However, on the surface, we see that Stans plan is likely to get a pilot to the airlines a couple of years before his peers. That will solve our retention problem!" There are a lot more BCTs, SF groups, SFABs and NG/USAR units than there are CABs. The U-2 and B-2 are both single-location aircraft, and they go through so much trouble getting their pilots that youd have to try to leave. Although busy, it left plenty of downtime for people to have actual lives. Commercial airlines offer higher salaries, more career control, and stabilization. Ideally, you should enlist with one of those units as soon as youre old enough and serve part-time while you complete college. Why should you consider doing Company . However, we have to look at more than just the number of years involved. Unfortunately, it will likely not have the opportunity to do so due to the negative impact it will have on retention in the near term. Fly them that way through the instrument phase, and then conduct a rotary wing transition. Anyhow, a 10 year ADSO is an ungodly amount for a branch without a proper Aviation culture. Finally, the thing not being said about sending senior NCOs to flight school is the socialization at the company level piece. Laws and regulations that govern military personnel may The Army may producean averageof 1200 Warrant Officers pilots annuallyincluding the Guard and Reserves. There will always be external factors and organizations that draw quality talent from the Army, but the Army should have more flexibility in their ability and measures to retain quality talent. That evens the odds even more. Branch of Choice: Your BRADSO obligation runs consecutively with your flight school ADSO and your commitment will run out to about the 10 year point. Create an account to follow your favorite communities and start taking part in conversations. I just want to stop leaving my family all the time! Your flight school ADSO is based on when you graduate WOBC and pin on your flight wings. If I am branched Aviation, this ADSO will begin upon completion of my flight school ADSO. If you want to. Im in shape, arguably intelligent, and have at least ten good years of service left in me yet an age waiver will not be considered for aviation for either OCS or WOCS. Back then the Army had a hard-on for pilots. These figures do not include initial trainingthey solely account for the time and cost associated with the platform-specific training. Typical Army of not addressing the real issues. More career Enlisted apply than street2seat on a yearly basis. Excerpt from your enlistment contract which every one of has (or will, if selected) signed. It will give you a recruiting advantage because a person out of high school or a year of college could position themselves for later on in life. F-35s in feature image: https://www.dvidshub.net/image/3982524/f-35-sky. They wont, we already dont get the congressionally authorized flight pay. First, as we just mentioned, you only have to worry about one job flying one aircraft for Uncle Sam. Those serving on active duty for less than 10 years shall serve in the Ready Reserve as follows: For active duty service less than 8 years, 6 years in the Ready Reserve. amp, Aviation Bonus (AvB) Program. These could range from 6 months to two years, depending on the type of aircraft hes flying. I dont think I wouldve taken the 10 Year ADSO, considering that Id just now be ALMOST complete with 10 yrs aviation service. The US Army recently changed its aviation Active Duty Service Obligation from 8 to 10 years and created an absolute uproar. Furthermore, the Army should implement quality of life and quality of service surveys for every pilot who remains. Currently in common core here and we still don't know if it applies or not. 10 year ADSO - Page 2 - Vertical Reference Helicopter Forums It wasn't approved. What are the chances of getting picked up. It's not about harassments, it how things get done. I dont agree with this decision at all but mean forcing people to stay helps retention because you know, they are forcing you. We are always either training or deploying. There is no replacement theory for ARFORGEN they decided to just shelve it and go with "let's make everyone miserable all the time". If you havent already read Part, Part 1: Air Force Reserve Officers Training Corps (AFROTC) Table of Contents What is AFROTC? A 10 year ADSO on a guy that already is a senior E6/E7 probably didn't make a lot of sense at the time as well. As long as hes getting a lot of flight time, Stan should have enough hours for a, When discussing any big-picture career options, I always make sure to follow Simon Sineks advice and, For anyone facing a 10-year military pilot ADSC/O, this means asking yourself: What is it about, For most, Top Gun played at least a little bit of a role. Serving on Active Duty has plenty of advantages, and even offers some highly-desirable opportunities that you cant get anywhere else. c. Officer Candidate School (OCS) graduates accepti ng an appoint in the Regular Army or a Reserve Appointment with a concurrent call to active duty incur a 3-year ADSO (see AR 350 . They can surely find that amount in the Enlisted ranks if WARRANTED. All of military aviation is what you make of it. In the current COVID crisis, those years may soon make the difference between having a great job and. (Yes, they say ADSO instead of ADSC because the Army and the Air Force refuse to do anything the same since they divorced back in '47.) ADDED QUESTION: What, in your opinion, is the average view of Army Aviation within the perspectives of your peers? From this mid-grade officer's perspective this constant obsession with readiness is actually detrimental to readiness. Fiscal Yr 2021 starts Oct 1, 2020. What if Stans 5-year ADSC runs out as the next SARS/Swine Flu/COVID-type pandemic puts hiring on hold? The Army has more career Enlisted willing to cross over for the opportunity in being an Officer and increasein pay for the family, with or without a degree. Although its easy to feel stuck on Active Duty, there are also options for getting out early. In the current COVID crisis, those years may soon make the difference between having a great job and getting kicked to the curb as a furlough. Display as a link instead, change without notice to me. I ended up discovering that Stan was most worried about frequent moves and long deployments stressing his family during an Active Duty flying career. There's definitely a balance issue, and I suppose the grass is always greener on the other side. In recent discussions with some USAFA cadets, Ive encountered several who actually turned down pilot slots because of that 10-year ADSC. Many aviators got tripped up by it in the last few years in the push to get to the airlines. Instead, the aviation branch has proposed to boost aviation career incentive pay, or flight pay, which can retain more qualified aviators, he said. This is the amount of time that an officer must serve on active duty. Yes, most of us eventually plan to move on to the airlines. Increased ADSO Effect on Recruiting and Retention Heres some humor about the topic too https://thefrontlines.com/comics/army-pilots-beware/. The root cause cited by those transitioning at various levels has related to toxic climates, mismanagement of professional profiles, quality of life, and unit culture. What is the real answer? However, we have to look at more than just the number of years involved. Stans Active Duty pilot peers would have spent 8-11 years since graduating from college flying for the military full time. Since classes are generally pretty well mixed with people with respect to when they commissioned, the first couple of classes must have been a mix of people on the old 6 and the new 10. Hes likely deployed at least 3 times, if not more, and has also spent many weeks TDY. 9 month rotations are followed by field time, followed by gunnery, followed by EIB, followed by a CTC, etc. They think this is going to solve the shortage. It explains how to perform well in your training, I dont hold back when people ask me the best way to become a. is to get hired directly by a Guard or Reserve unit and let them send you to UPT.